Hans The Generous Man

Pariahs Zone
User avatar
Headshot
The Impartial
Posts: 825
Joined: Sun 1 Oct 2017 23:23

Re: Hans The Generous Man

Post by Headshot » Wed 23 May 2018 19:46

DarkestShadow wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018 19:35

There is considerable controversy though - even "ghostnote" who supported you spoke of inappropriate. That's why I just left it open - to include what ever the persons opinion is who is reading this.
I know that, but a statement should be considered appropriate (or not) according to the law and forum rules, not according to individual sensitivity.

No insult, no accusation, no defamation = appropriate (even if you feel offended).


And one can't consider my sarcastic tone inappropriate while considering HZ's insults appropriate, it's only a matter of common sense. Not to speak about those who insinuated that I was a liar (TFA Rescored) which was clearly considered appropriate by most forum members.

So, even if I were wrong, my comments were appropriate, no matter if some people who supported me considered them offensive.

User avatar
DarkestShadow
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat 21 Apr 2018 15:06

Re: Hans The Generous Man

Post by DarkestShadow » Wed 23 May 2018 19:51

Highly discussable* but not inappropriate. :D

*at the time where the was no evidence. Now I guess it's clear, meh...

User avatar
Headshot
The Impartial
Posts: 825
Joined: Sun 1 Oct 2017 23:23

Re: Hans The Generous Man

Post by Headshot » Wed 23 May 2018 20:03

DarkestShadow wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018 19:51
Highly discussable* but not inappropriate. :D

*at the time where the was no evidence. Now I guess it's clear, meh...
Why would it be considered highly discussable while it was not considered so when DJ called me a dick and when some insinuated that I was a liar ?

Why no one considered highly discussable the fact that HZ called Ganvai an idiot ?

You see, it's really hard to consider famous people as simple human being, even for someone like you who try hard to do so.

User avatar
sazema
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat 5 May 2018 12:40

Re: Hans The Generous Man

Post by sazema » Wed 23 May 2018 22:00

DarkestShadow wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018 16:57
I don't find that HZ is directly responsible for sazema's decision/reaction. I would not have expected him to leave because of this (even though I'm also not in his shoes...) and I don't think anyone "hates" him or would want him to stop posting at Vi - including rctec.
Rude is an opinion based on a specific situation and twat a childish insult - I would highly encourage sazema to not take it so harshly just because it comes from a very popular guy. Just my take.
That has nothing with my decision man... I'm not 12 years old :) I already explained, it was quite funny to hear that from one celebrity, and it speaks more about him.
I was more surprised of what happened after that by forum members, even if I'm actually not, from what I saw in past.

My comment "I learned my lesson here" was not directed to HZ (like sorry H) than it was directed to forum like "A haaa, don't play with the lion", so yes, I learned my lesson clearly, that's what will happen if you have opposite opinion of any kind, especially if it's related to some big faces (persons or companies).

... and, why would I post anything there after all? Same people who spitted on me now will be nice? :)

If you need to re-think "Hmmm, I'm wondering now, how will community react to my new post, will I be banished or not?" just before clicking on POST button, that's not good.
Like in life and how do you choose your friends, at some point you just reallze that there is no valid reason of being part of that anymore.

User avatar
Kyle Judkins
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon 16 Apr 2018 02:53

Re: Hans The Generous Man

Post by Kyle Judkins » Thu 24 May 2018 02:05

yeah the moment you've got to worry if the next thing you say will be your last - its not worth holding onto.

I've had the same best friends almost the entirety of my life - and gladly let those who are easily scared off walk away.

User avatar
sherlock
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri 18 May 2018 13:20

Re: Hans The Generous Man

Post by sherlock » Thu 24 May 2018 08:06

sazema wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018 22:00
[...] at some point you just reallze that there is no valid reason of being part of that anymore.
Glad to see you here though!

User avatar
Kyle Judkins
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon 16 Apr 2018 02:53

Re: Hans The Generous Man

Post by Kyle Judkins » Thu 24 May 2018 16:11

I'm glad to see erik here too

don't know what was funnier HZ calling you a twat, or you making a "best HZ string thread"

User avatar
DarkestShadow
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat 21 Apr 2018 15:06

Re: Hans The Generous Man

Post by DarkestShadow » Fri 25 May 2018 15:23

Headshot wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018 20:03
DarkestShadow wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018 19:51
Highly discussable* but not inappropriate. :D

*at the time where the was no evidence. Now I guess it's clear, meh...
Why would it be considered highly discussable while it was not considered so when DJ called me a dick and when some insinuated that I was a liar ?

Why no one considered highly discussable the fact that HZ called Ganvai an idiot ?

You see, it's really hard to consider famous people as simple human being, even for someone like you who try hard to do so.
That's all highly discussable... to which extent and in which context insults should be allowed or forbidden etc...
Never said it isn't.

I was also referring to your claim and what it was based on, not necessarily that you spoke it out.
Headshot wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018 19:04
DarkestShadow wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018 16:57
Whether HZ admitted he was wrong or not wouldn't have actually changed to appropriateness/inappropriateness of Headshots comments since at this point he couldn't have known whether he was right or not.
I knew perfectly well that I was right, I didn't need any proof.

Have you seen these videos ? : viewtopic.php?f=32&t=130

I explained that there is no need for proof because music is "mathematical" : based on theoretical knowledge and keyboard skills, one can evalutate a composer's limitations. There is no room for chance and magical powers.

So, it was obvious that he could not have created this music alone. This drama just showed how stupid, ignorant and sycophantic forum members are.

Only those who have zero musical knowledge or those blinded by "Hollywood's light" could believe in Santa HZ.
You still didn't KNOW that you were right - you were very convinced.

And noone is talking about magical powers... but there is talent. And you yourself wrote of "talent" in on of your videos, I'll find the part if necessary.
You can't expect to teach a random person musical knowledge and expect that they will be a great composer.
It's always a combination of talent and knowledge. Otherwise I would be Bernard Hermann if I only inherit everything he learnt as well...

While I can't prove that talent alone is enough to write a track like The Final Game there also isn't very clear evidence against it - only assumptions (by experts, of course - still... even scientists guessing about something in their field and being convinced that it's right can err).

I also have seen the videos. Of course one can based on the earlier work of a composer guess what they are capable of at all. But it still isn't sure enough to call it knowledge. The composer might have been uninspired/unmotivated and/or in a rush...
Headshot wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018 19:04
DarkestShadow wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018 16:57
Whether HZ admitted he was wrong or not wouldn't have actually changed to appropriateness/inappropriateness of Headshots comments since at this point he couldn't have known whether he was right or not.
DarkestShadow wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018 16:57
- No, to many guns largely refers to assumptions in bad faith. Evidence is evidence - but where there is interpretation there is assumption. And these assumptions seem to be largely in bad faith here.
Assumptions ?

Image

Image

Image

And you still believe in his potential good faith ? Are you serious ?

You hide your zimmermania behind your will to be objective.
DarkestShadow wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018 16:57
And yes, I may be less of a fan now, but the musical matters I appreciate HZ for have largely not been impacted a lot by our recent thunderstorm.
if I were you, after seeing my idol lie that way about his abilities (no matter if he lied to himself or to others), I would ask myself some questions.
I'm sure asking myself questions. But they are only questions... no clear further evidence.

And yes, I will not always assume evil based on one proven incident. It's more likely, but not for sure.

There is evidence but also (further) assumptions. "Maybe, maybe not". We had quite a few of those. ;)
Headshot wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018 19:04
Kyle Judkins wrote:
Tue 22 May 2018 01:48
It's like the plot to singin in the rain, but with an entire fucking orchestra, composers, arrangers, orchestrators, instead of just 1 singer covering for an actress who cant sing.
That's for sure to harsh. I think it's most likely that most of the ideas HZ's scores base on come from him.
And then also most of the arrangements.
But there are arrangers and orchestrators that improve those and clean them up. More an "auto-tune" case here, when continuing on the singer example.
Wrote about this here, first post on the page, using HZ's Science and Religion as an example. Tastes may diverge, but I'm staying a fan since that's one of my favs. :)
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=186&start=30

User avatar
Headshot
The Impartial
Posts: 825
Joined: Sun 1 Oct 2017 23:23

Re: Hans The Generous Man

Post by Headshot » Fri 25 May 2018 16:05

DarkestShadow wrote:
Fri 25 May 2018 15:23

You still didn't KNOW that you were right - you were very convinced.
No, I knew that I was right, as I know that one will not be able to drive an airplane alone without serious learning.

I don't need any proof to KNOW that.


DarkestShadow wrote:
Fri 25 May 2018 15:23
And noone is talking about magical powers... but there is talent. And you yourself wrote of "talent" in on of your videos, I'll find the part if necessary.
You can't expect to teach a random person musical knowledge and expect that they will be a great composer.
It's always a combination of talent and knowledge. Otherwise I would be Bernard Hermann if I only inherit everything he learnt as well...
Off topic.
Talent is not the question here.
DarkestShadow wrote:
Fri 25 May 2018 15:23
While I can't prove that talent alone is enough to write a track like The Final Game there also isn't very clear evidence against it - only assumptions (by experts, of course - still... even scientists guessing about something in their field and being convinced that it's right can err).
Believe what you want but everything is clearly explained here : viewtopic.php?f=32&t=130

If you are unable to understand that, go study music a bit ; then come back here and explain me how someone who has trouble playing one of his very simple tune on the piano could write a symphonic score alone.

Like HZ, you don't know what you are talking about and you're wasting my time with your "there is no evidence" BS.

DarkestShadow wrote:
Fri 25 May 2018 15:23
I also have seen the videos. Of course one can based on the earlier work of a composer guess what they are capable of at all. But it still isn't sure enough to call it knowledge. The composer might have been uninspired/unmotivated and/or in a rush...
Go watch the videos again because that was only a part of the whole analysis.

User avatar
Kyle Judkins
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon 16 Apr 2018 02:53

Re: Hans The Generous Man

Post by Kyle Judkins » Fri 25 May 2018 23:50

I'm not sure someone can actually have studied music and come to a different conclusion after being presented evidence.

Even watching him go full autism on the roli vs my butchering as a hobbyist composer who has the piano skills of a shoe.

so the one saving Grace(being good at piano) isn't even applicable

User avatar
Kyle Judkins
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon 16 Apr 2018 02:53

Re: Hans The Generous Man

Post by Kyle Judkins » Sat 26 May 2018 01:25

Darkest I think the problem is that you are trying to think too literally... Like you literally want Han Zimmer to come out and admit to everything he has done wrong, or there is a reasonable possibility it's not all true...

But that simply just doesn't work in practice, many things including science work on observation and extrapolation for the things you can't see... You can't physically see gravity, but after observing the behavior repeatedly you can come to some conclusions although they might be guesses that will never physically be seen... sometimes evidence is just a matter of collective anecdotes

A good example would be a situation like North Korea, where are we can technically never know for sure whether or not China gave North Korea our missile technology... But we do know is that they are much more friendly to each other, and we did give China our missile Tech as part of a deal.

China is never going to come out and tell you that they did that, but every possible piece of information points in that direction... And as a result you would fail your country as a leader if you didn't work on those same assumptions...

I'm pretty sure if multiple people came to you and told you that they saw your girlfriend with another guy you wouldn't need to see them actually cheating on you to confront them... It's just no longer a coincidence, but a repeating pattern that can be easily observed much like many laws of physics

User avatar
Headshot
The Impartial
Posts: 825
Joined: Sun 1 Oct 2017 23:23

Re: Hans The Generous Man

Post by Headshot » Sat 26 May 2018 03:36

Kyle Judkins wrote:
Sat 26 May 2018 01:25
Darkest I think the problem is that you are trying to think too literally... Like you literally want Han Zimmer to come out and admit to everything he has done wrong, or there is a reasonable possibility it's not all true...

But that simply just doesn't work in practice, many things including science work on observation and extrapolation for the things you can't see... You can't physically see gravity, but after observing the behavior repeatedly you can come to some conclusions although they might be guesses that will never physically be seen... sometimes evidence is just a matter of collective anecdotes
Absolutely : logical thinking.

Darkest hides his zimmermania behind a "forced" objectivity.
He denies the logical conclusion of my analysis using a so-called "scientific" or impartial stance : "these are only assumptions - we don't have proof - what HZ did was wrong, but it means nothing etc."

This is talk for talk's sake in order to give the impression that things are not that simple...while they are :

1_a man who plays keyboard like a child
2_a man unable to play correctly a very simple tune he has created (despite the help of Nick)
3_a man who has a limited musical knowledge
4_a man who created weak (really weak) demos (I'm talking about the writing level, not the sound)
5_a man who lied or fooled himself about his abilities
6_a man who works with an army of collaborators
7_a man who insulted Ganvai while the latter gave good advice (not to mention Sazema and DJ's cases)
8_a man who taunted me unfairly while presenting an altered version of the reality

These are not assumptions but facts, and connecting these facts to each other only lead to one conclusion : Hans is a bullshiter who is far from being a genius and who likes to boast* (by belittling others → optional).

*which leads us to another logical deduction : it is very likely that a person who loves to boast that way will also use false modesty and public display of generosity.

Everything else :"these are just coincidences, it doesn't mean anything, we don't know, maybe or not, we have no proof, we can't judge him or draw any conclusion" bla-bla-bla...is just a false objective stance that aims to deny the obvious.

User avatar
DarkestShadow
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat 21 Apr 2018 15:06

Re: Hans The Generous Man

Post by DarkestShadow » Sat 26 May 2018 13:32

Kyle Judkins wrote:
Sat 26 May 2018 01:25
Darkest I think the problem is that you are trying to think too literally... Like you literally want Han Zimmer to come out and admit to everything he has done wrong, or there is a reasonable possibility it's not all true...

But that simply just doesn't work in practice, many things including science work on observation and extrapolation for the things you can't see... You can't physically see gravity, but after observing the behavior repeatedly you can come to some conclusions although they might be guesses that will never physically be seen... sometimes evidence is just a matter of collective anecdotes
I'm not a scientist but I'm pretty sure in the sciences any conclusion based on collective anecdotes would be called a hypothesis/theory, not evidence. A hypothesis which scientists will then seek to substantiate/invalidate with actual evidence that is not based on anecdotes.
That's what I see when I read psychological publications. Even ideas based on multiple existing evidences are called hypothesis/theoretical basis.

And, of course you can't see Gravity. But that's not what gravity is about - it is not defined by being something physical you can see but a term for a behavior, a function. You can see the function of gravity but throwing something in the air.

Thus you CAN prove that it exists. Or disprove it's existence in case the thing you threw remains in the air.

You could also prove the phenomenon of "reversed gravity", if it would exist in a place. - Throw something in the air (something neutral like a shoe - not something that creates upward momentum on it's own, like a bubble) and if it goes upwards rather than downwards we have evidence that gravity has been reversed.

Not sure what you mean with that comparison. Gravity is a term for a function, not a physical object and of course you can see and feel this function.
Watch some videos where people are thrown in a room without gravity and tell me again that you can't prove it or see it - or experience it! :)
https://youtu.be/lTRKyVNGX2k?t=92

We must also specify what at this point we actually mean.

I accept The Final Game as fraudulent. Evidence has been presented and it is unlikely to be false - because as an unknown french guy you don't mess with a powerful millionaire and widely respected person like HZ by simply faking mails - not worth it...

Discombobulate is very confusing, I'm not yet ready to accept this as true for many reasons I outlined in the thread.

In that sense we gotta make sure what exactly we're talking about ATM.

In this thread was only saying that there is no clear evidence that talent alone is not enough to write a piece like Final Game. I'll check Headshots videos again though to see more clearly where he's coming from in regards to this...
Kyle Judkins wrote:
Sat 26 May 2018 01:25

A good example would be a situation like North Korea, where are we can technically never know for sure whether or not China gave North Korea our missile technology... But we do know is that they are much more friendly to each other, and we did give China our missile Tech as part of a deal.

China is never going to come out and tell you that they did that, but every possible piece of information points in that direction... And as a result you would fail your country as a leader if you didn't work on those same assumptions...

I'm pretty sure if multiple people came to you and told you that they saw your girlfriend with another guy you wouldn't need to see them actually cheating on you to confront them... It's just no longer a coincidence, but a repeating pattern that can be easily observed much like many laws of physics
- Yes... of course I will confront them. But that doesn't mean that evidence is in the house that they are actually cheating. If I would count this as evidence I would not confront them (which basically means - ask for explanations with the assumption that they may be cheating), but simply break up.
Also, people actually witnessing, seeing certain things is much clearer than some of the things regarding HZ and writing abilities I am supposed to accept as evidence here.

- Missiles...
Many data and infos strongly pointing in the same direction (towards something clear and graspable - not something as complicated and variable as a humans character) could sometimes also be counted as evidences - although not final. Depends how clear they are...

And yes, you may HAVE to feel decisions based on assumptions in this case. But this is because we are talking about very serious stuff here, unlike the question to which extent HZ relies on others to produce his scores or whether he as a whole is a negative person.

For example - If I suspect that you may want to kill me, another serious situation, be sure that I'll feel some quite significant decisions for safety's sake. Despite lack of clear evidence.
That has everything to do with the seriousness of the present suspicion and it's implications - not because we can always count such suspicion as evidence. Odd example.

User avatar
Headshot
The Impartial
Posts: 825
Joined: Sun 1 Oct 2017 23:23

Re: Hans The Generous Man

Post by Headshot » Sat 26 May 2018 15:31

DarkestShadow wrote:
Sat 26 May 2018 13:32
I accept The Final Game as fraudulent. Evidence has been presented and it is unlikely to be false - because as an unknown french guy you don't mess with a powerful millionaire and widely respected person like HZ by simply faking mails - not worth it...
You should not accept this because of the evidence but because of the detailed analysis.

That's why, upon reflection, I don't think my videos will make you understand anything.
As I said to Beethoven reincarnated, to understand the scientific aspect of music, you have to study it seriously.

So, as long as you don't study music, harmony (classic/jazz) and orchestration you will need proof for things that don't require any.

Ignorance makes people believe or imagine anything.

As long as you don't know what you are talking about, you will still continue to believe in magical powers or magical ears just because maybe you manage to get some encouraging results in your sequencer.

But harmony and orchestration are far from being only a matter of ear.
DarkestShadow wrote:
Sat 26 May 2018 13:32
In this thread was only saying that there is no clear evidence that talent alone is not enough to write a piece like Final Game.
What means talent alone ? This "concept" is not connected to reality.
Breaking the rules ? Doing what we want ?
Talent without practice and knowledge means nothing and leads nowhere.

Are Hans demos/keyboard skills the sign of someone who practiced a lot ?

Sorry to disappoint you but your idol looks like a tard in front of a keyboard. He is obviously not a talented artist (musician and composer → awkward childish demos). So what's the point of invoking the talent in our matter ?
Where do you perceive talent ? Is Hans a great musician ? Did he create well written demos ? Where do you perceive talent excepted throught soundtracks he precisely didn't create alone ?

The only facts are the pathetic demos (A League of Their Own), his poor keyboard skills, the falsehood about his abilities and his army of collaborators.
Everything else are just assumptions (for example : did he create Interstellar's theme ? → maybe, or not)

You reverse the problem : "nothing proves that talent alone is not enough", while the only thing heavily questioned, the only thing that remains to be proved after this drama is precisely Hans's talent as a composer.

Good luck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSXvxkvNmjA

User avatar
Kyle Judkins
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon 16 Apr 2018 02:53

Re: Hans The Generous Man

Post by Kyle Judkins » Sat 26 May 2018 15:45

you completely missed the point.

yes, if it's impossible for us to actually substantiate a phenomenon - we call it a theory, or hypothesis.

however, we sent people into space tied to tons of rocket fuel incorporating those "theories" for their very survival.

Gravity is just a theory too, but I'm pretty sure you go through life with 100% assumption that it's fact, and it's functionally useful for you to do so.

Calories are the most ass backwards understanding of digestion and nutrient intake we could butcher, and yet people make thousands of decisions per year based on unreliable and frequently wrong data. It effects individuals differently, even effects an individual differently within a few month time span... even the macro nutrients have an extremely different effect on people(2000 calories of carbs vs 2000 calories of fat) and yet every day, medical doctors prescribe diets based on this - dietitions make meal plans based on this, and medical facilities feed their patients based on this.


and I entirely disagree with you about the importance of the HZ situation. Hypothetically, if we are right about HZ, he's ruining the industry as well as film music in the long term. Setting bad models for both the composer director relationship and also turning composing into a job more like an animator instead of a comic book artist. Where talent will be namelessly harvested with 20 other nameless ones, to make a star out of 1 person.

talented composers will be scouted out early, and essentially exploited into creating their own rival - by putting someone like HZ's name directly onto work of exactly their same quality, while also having to convince a director that you should get the job - even though "HZ" can do just as good as you(except it's actually your work) but is also way more versitile magically.

it's a win/win for a studio to hire HZ, because he's got nearly infinite supplies of other peoples creative juices to not get burnt out, as well as other peoples expertise. The studio doesnt give a shit if his underlings are famous, get paid their worth, or anything... they just care that the tracks in the movie sound good - and dont care at all who made it, or how many people in this case made it.


so yes, considering struggling composers might literally KILL THEMSELVES at some point, due to how fucked up the industry is becoming - it could literally result in life or death. But the more important reality, is that it's simply going to make many many many many many many many composers unhappy. like the net loss on lifetime happiness from current and future talent going into an industry that uses and consumes them - while creating stupid hurdles that almost no other craft has to deal with - with a shiny face like zimmers as a "role model" all the way up until they realize he's a low talent hack who exploits others - they'll grow to resent the entire ordeal. There are a number of reasons I'll never pursue composing professionally - and the completely backwards industry is one of them. And people like HZ are making it go from bad to WORSE.


So maybe you dont want to believe HZ really does all this based on the evidence... but take for just a second - and hypothetically run through the ACTUAL EFFECTS of what it would mean if we were right about HZ. Think long term, and you'll realize the severity is a fuck ton worse than just "so hz didnt write some peices, who cares?"

Why do you think no one wants to be an inventor these days? If you come up with a product, you have to have insane amounts of resources just to successfully patent it - and even then, it's hard to do that without someone with the money stealing it. So big corporations can buy ideas for cheap and profit massively off of them - while your average guy couldnt dream of patenting an idea... just literally the cost of getting a piece of paper saying you own that idea.

Post Reply