PART 08 - Let's Ask An Orchestration Teacher

[Farkle]

This raises absolutely no questions.

Look at the credits of Hans Zimmer soundtracks , everything is clearly stated :

orchestrators
additional composers
arrangers
conductors
mixer
sample makers
synth programming
musicians
technical advisor
interns

Crediting people is admitting that they do exist. I don't see what more Hans need to do .


You cant write in the end credits :

"Music by HZ , Orchestrators, arrangers, conductors, msuicians, copyists"
as much as you dont put

"Movie directed by James Cameron, 2nd director unit , 3rd director, assistant director, "

The architect, and the chief of the department is credited first.

So what about the set decorator?
It's often written "set decoration by xx" where xx is one person. But you have 40 people working
on the set decoration.

Just a couple of comments.

1. regarding the set decorator quote:

Logical Fallacy - False Equivalence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

You are creating an equal footing between two disparate sectors of a film production team, and trying to use one to prove the behavior of another. Logical Fallacy. The Union for set designers and decorators is vastly different than AF of M and composers, it's not appropriate to use them as counter arguments.

2. regarding the quote, "Crediting people is admitting that they do exist. I don't see what more Hans need to do ."

Logical Fallacy - Argument from Incredulity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_fallacy

You "can't imagine what else he could have done", so therefore, Hans's points are valid. Logical Fallacy. You're not an authority on RCP's business workings, nor the negotiations that Gorfaine-Schwartz did with the production company, therefore, your imagination is not a valid argument.

And lastly, regarding the statement that "Hans credited the orchestrators, etc. etc." as an argument that he therefore properly credited the assistance in composing/creating his cue (the final game):

Logical Fallacy of Composition

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division

Assuming that one part of an argument applies to all, or vice versa.

The fact that Hans credited orchestrators and arrangers over the entire film, does not preclude him specifically stating that he used additional musical help on that particular cue (the final game). He could have used orchestrators on SOME cues, and not others. Again, we don't know what the business arrangements were in the contract. What we DO know, is that Hans stated explicitly that he composed and arranged every note of that cue (The final Game) himself, and that his assistants (which he admitted he had), did a verbatim takedown of that, and did not add/change/subtract, or otherwise edit his music.

The purpose of this discourse is to establish... is THAT STATEMENT true? Is Hans's demo musically identical to what we hear in the film? It's that simple. Everything else is smoke, mirrors, distractions... or logical fallacies.

I look forward to your arguments on the point I made above.
Mike

[Kyle Judkins]

edit: I'm an idiot

need sleep

[Farkle]

"And lastly, regarding the statement that "Hans credited the orchestrators, etc. etc." as an argument that he therefore composed and orchestrated the entire cue (the final game) by himself:"

that's because he SAID that he did, lol.

Yes, thank you, Kyle, I edited my post to accurately reflect what I meant to say. I apologize, I mis-wrote my point. Point corrected.

Mike

[Kyle Judkins]

"And lastly, regarding the statement that "Hans credited the orchestrators, etc. etc." as an argument that he therefore composed and orchestrated the entire cue (the final game) by himself:"

that's because he SAID that he did, lol.

Yes, thank you, Kyle, I edited my post to accurately reflect what I meant to say. I apologize, I mis-wrote my point. Point corrected.

Mike

IT CANNOT BE UNDONE.

alright I will read it

also, I'm responding to farkle responding to phil.

because I shoot first, figure it out later.


my mistake is forever frozen on the internet.

[Raph]

Off topic, ok, but on the movie end credits of "A league of their own", no additional composer, no arranger, no orchestrator is credited, just music by Hans Zimmer, score conducted by Shirley Walker.

And I don't get the point, why can't they be listed ? What an end credits is for ? You have the 2nd director unit, the 3rd one, everyone is (or should be) listed.

Yep, even if it's understandable (for clarity sake) there is only one name at the composer line, in all fairness, everyone should have his own line.

[phil_l]

I look forward to your arguments on the point I made above.
Mike

Well there's nothing to add because we'll never hear the demo. Thanks to Samy way of dealing with this.

[Olivier Calmel]

This raises absolutely no questions.

Look at the credits of Hans Zimmer soundtracks , everything is clearly stated :

orchestrators
additional composers
arrangers
....

It raises questions for a simple reason : HZ wrote '" I did write and orchestrated that whole piece. That's why it's not that good. "Let me be very clear : every note was sequenced by me and and then transcribed verbatim for the players."

So question is : what really did the orchestrators ? What really did the arrangers ?

I insure you that when I ask my students to orchestrate 'Ondine', any note, any phrase, any counterpoint was clearly write by Ravel. It's a matter of craft, even if it's artistic one.

I assure you that when the Bach team was doing the copy of the Master, this did not raise the question of who had wrote the music.

I assure you that when Süssmayr becomes the main composer of the requiem, this is immediately understood in the light of the genius of Mozart

Let me ask you a question: Are you a musician? Do you really understand the difference between orchestration, arrangement, harmonization, instrumentation?

[Olivier Calmel]

btw I write for concert today, but I had wrotten for films too, here's a very simple one:

[Kyle Judkins]

Phil you should campaign for some politicians

your level of denial and deflection would be a big hit when you're pedalling a corrupt politician with a bad history.

also lovely piece Oliver

I like the you chose something simple he could digest

[Olivier Calmel]

also lovely piece Oliver

I like the you chose something simple he could digest

:)
A minor for all cue, it should be loved by HZ and his fan boys lol

[Kyle Judkins]

also lovely piece Oliver

I like the you chose something simple he could digest

:)
A minor for all cue, it should be loved by HZ and his fan boys lol

XD

white keys for all those white knights valiantly defending lord zimmer