PART 04 - Where it all Started

[Headshot]

Honestly I don't see the problem with the factory .

The problem is that you're going to score a lot more movies that what you would be able to do alone or with a few collaborators.

Sure HZ should have said "i wrote that track" and not "I wrote AND orchestrated that track" , that's all..

No that's not all, it was not a vocabulary problem :

Orchestrating a very detailed mockup is not writing a track, it is orchestrating it . ( like I'm sure it was, HZ was a pioneer in sampling even in 1992 his mockups were really good, for that time )

The quality of a mockup (concerning the sound itself) has nothing to do with writing skills. Just because HZ was a pioneer in sampling doesn't mean he was able to orchestrate a symphonic big band alone.

I never said he didn't orchestrate it, I said : I can't believe he orchestrate it ALL BY HIMSELF
Which means : orchestrators/arrangers have certainly corrected and improved his work.

But again, some of you don't seem to realize what symphonic big band implies, how rich and detailed the orchestration is.

You are blinded by a myth, you are blinded by the light of fame and success, unable to perceive the obvious truth. You still believe in Santa Claus, but I will help you to come back to earth.

[phil_l]

"Which means : orchestrators/arrangers have certainly corrected and improved his work."

So we do agree. They certainly corrected and improved the work.
It's a great track which would have never been made without Zimmer's first, so that's fine for me.
I'm not blinded by any myth.
I just listen to what the arrangers and orchestrators do when they're alone, without Hans. And something's lost , it sounds bland, not inspired,
precisely because Hans isnt here anymore. Even if HZ only comes up with the main theme and the concept of a score, that's totally fine. I don't care if he didnt score 1m23 transition theme or 1m35 going into Gargantua's black hole.

When Hans said he orchestrated all himself, he certainly meant he did a detailed mockup. Not that he orchestrated and created the individual parts for every instruments, he doesnt know how to do that.I like this track , the structure, the gimmicks, the themes, I like the story he develops in it ( I've actually not seen the movie .. ), all these elements, are not orchestrators's job. Orchestrators often are underestimated, but we should not overestimate them either.

[DarkestShadow]

3 additional composers.

I'm curious where you got that information from.
But again - we're guessing how much they, if they exist actually contributed. HZ fans will say Hans probably did most of it himself, HZ-not-so-thrilled-people (let's put it lightly) will say that a good bunch, or most, or at least the best parts are from others... all biased. In the end we really don't know.

[Headshot]

I just listen to what the arrangers and orchestrators do when they're alone, without Hans. And something's lost , it sounds bland, not inspired,

Where can I listen to this ?

And what about the composers who work for him ? They are nothing without Hans's holy presence ?
I think it's a MYTH

Even if HZ only comes up with the main theme and the concept of a score, that's totally fine.

That's totally fine but that was not the question.

The contributions of orchestrators may be underestimated but that wouldn't have anything to do specifically with HZ but with any other composer as well. :) :)

Sure, but we are talking about a composer who uses an army of orchestrators/arrangers/composers.

Ah, the cat... Haha - I believe the composer and arranger/orchestrator are the same person (Mindaugas Piecaitis). :D The cat didn't really compose anything but played random lines and the composer wrote a wonderful piece around it that gives the illusion that the cat is leading the composition/performance.

Precisely : an arranger can do "miracles".

[Suck My BRAAAM]

Sorry guys for destroying your idols but Alan Silvestri does not orchestrate anything ... look before back to the future what he was doing? Cheap synth scores.
He said in an interview before doing an orchestral score for BTTF, that he read a book on how to make a filmscore. yeah he read a book and can orchestrate in a few weeks a freakin' incredible soundtrack like Back to The Future ?

Silvestri had a strong jazz background, he was composing for and conducting a live orchestra during his early years. I had the opportunity to ask him about his Berklee days and was told he did a ridiculously amount of transcriptions. His ears were sharp. By the time he got the BTTF phone call, all he needed was Hagen's book and a lot of confidence. And of course having a guy like Jim Campbell will make the process less traumatizing. God bless that man. ;) But you can clearly hear his jazz training all over BTTF's harmonies. It wasn't random.

James Horner can orchestrate, but I heard from very close orchestrators that on a big amount of scores he just delivers a piano cue and ask the orchestrators to do everything behind.

WRONG! You are talking about a guy who used to walk around the corridors of UCLA with Strauss' Alpine Symphony under his arms, at a time where post-romantic music was considered dismally tacky. James was ridiculously gifted. By the time he got his big break with ST2, he had scored a ton of dog-shit films for next to nothing. Producers couldn't believe what he could achieve with so little. He had laser-like focus on his goals. The only reason he would use an orchestrator was due to time constraints, and I quote:

"I write about 2.5 to three minutes of music a day when I orchestrate, when I don't orchestrate, it goes up. I don't for instance write a piano line on one or two lines and then ship if off to an orchestrator and let the orchestrator make it into what you hear. I tend to do most of the colouring myself, I decide what instruments play what, what the voicings are. Obviously if I had a lot of music to write and a short amount of time, I'm not getting much done and I will run out of time before I finish the score. So in cases like that I will do as much of the orchestrations as I can, and I will make copious notes as to what I want on the score paper with arrows, "please double this to this," I'll put in as much as I can and it will then go off to an orchestrator who will finish it off for me and send it to the copyist."

He didn't "just deliver a piano cue". Some of you feel like throwing random stuff just to make a point. Let's not start spreading misinformation. If you are still not convinced, grab a copy of the manuscripts of any of his concert work (warning, not cheap) or his UCLA thesis (Conversations), and you will see that Jamie was as complete as he was praised to be.

He had great admiration for Zimmer btw. Not that mockery which Hollywood became.

Anyway, what we are discussing here is the simple fact Hans said he wrote and orchestrated every single note of that Big Band cue. When Samy questioned him, instead of giving a honest straight answer, he went for cheap blows and self-pity tactics. And the fanboys took the bait like they usually do. They attacked Samy like a pack of rabid dogs, like they usually do. What went down at VIC was really unfair and dishonest. I'd be pissed too!

[phil_l]

"Where can I listen to this ?

And what about the composers who work for him ? They are nothing without Hans's holy presence ? "

Well Bruce Fowler doesnt write music , I believe..

Lorne Balfe's compositions in solo , sorry but it's not worth anything. Pure wallpaper music.

Geoff Zanelli ?

Klaus Badelt, the guy did some great thing in Gladiator, but in solo? meehhhhh....

Nick Glennie Smith solo scores?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9EdPe510uo

Only John Powell and HGW are great composers out of RCP . But they never really did additional composition for HZ ( or , very little.. )

[DarkestShadow]

"Sure, but we are talking about a composer who uses an army of orchestrators/arrangers/composers."

"Precisely : an arranger can do "miracles"."

Meh, arranger AND composer in my book... the cat's contributions are really very minor. Are suggesting that this is the amount Hans contributes to his tracks? Well, well - you sure are free to do so. Freedom of religion, lol. :D

And the army... well, as Hans Zimmer he surely has good connections to almost everyone involved with music. If I could just hire 8 different great orchestrators I might well do that. They may then just be simultaneously working on tracks rather than all, one after the other, doing the lion share of my track.

[phil_l]

Sorry guys for destroying your idols but Alan Silvestri does not orchestrate anything ... look before back to the future what he was doing? Cheap synth scores.
He said in an interview before doing an orchestral score for BTTF, that he read a book on how to make a filmscore. yeah he read a book and can orchestrate in a few weeks a freakin' incredible soundtrack like Back to The Future ?

Silvestri had a strong jazz background, he was composing for and conducting a live orchestra during his early years. I had the opportunity to ask him about his Berklee days and was told he did a ridiculously amount of transcriptions. His ears were sharp. By the time he got the BTTF phone call, all he needed was Hagen's book and a lot of confidence. And of course having a guy like Jim Campbell will make the process less traumatizing. God bless that man. ;) But you can clearly hear his jazz training all over BTTF's harmonies. It wasn't random.

James Horner can orchestrate, but I heard from very close orchestrators that on a big amount of scores he just delivers a piano cue and ask the orchestrators to do everything behind.

WRONG! You are talking about a guy who used to walk around the corridors of UCLA with Strauss' Alpine Symphony under his arms, at a time where post-romantic music was considered dismally tacky. James was ridiculously gifted. By the time he got his big break with ST2, he had scored a ton of dog-shit films for next to nothing. Producers couldn't believe what he could achieve with so little. He had laser-like focus on his goals. The only reason he would use an orchestrator was due to time constraints, and I quote:

"I write about 2.5 to three minutes of music a day when I orchestrate, when I don't orchestrate, it goes up. I don't for instance write a piano line on one or two lines and then ship if off to an orchestrator and let the orchestrator make it into what you hear. I tend to do most of the colouring myself, I decide what instruments play what, what the voicings are. Obviously if I had a lot of music to write and a short amount of time, I'm not getting much done and I will run out of time before I finish the score. So in cases like that I will do as much of the orchestrations as I can, and I will make copious notes as to what I want on the score paper with arrows, "please double this to this," I'll put in as much as I can and it will then go off to an orchestrator who will finish it off for me and send it to the copyist."

He didn't "just deliver a piano cue". Some of you feel like throwing random stuff just to make a point. Let's not start spreading misinformation. If you are still not convinced, grab a copy of the manuscripts of any of his concert work (warning, not cheap) or his UCLA thesis (Conversations), and you will see that Jamie was as complete as he was praised to be.

He had great admiration for Zimmer btw. Not that mockery which Hollywood became.

Anyway, what we are discussing here is the simple fact Hans said he wrote and orchestrated every single note of that Big Band cue. When Samy questioned him, instead of giving a honest straight answer, he went for cheap blows and self-pity tactics. And the fanboys took the bait like they usually do. They attacked Samy like a pack of rabid dogs, like they usually do. What went down at VIC was really unfair and dishonest. I'd be pissed too!

You're right about Silvestri, we recognize his style and his Jazz chops.. but Jim Campbell and further William Ross, Conrad Pope.. sorry but they nearly ghostwrite a lot of Silvestri's Scores.

As for Horner , of course I know he's able to orchestrate himself. I'm a big fan of Horner. But like everybody in Hollywood, even the "real" composers, he really asked orchestrators to do more than a simple job of a copyist. I got that from an orchestrator in London who knows everything and everyone regarding orchestrations. I'm not going to say who he is of course...but only HZ can be trashed because he uses orchestrators and credits arrangers and additional composers.

[DarkestShadow]

Geoff Zanelli ?

Music by Geoff Zanelli
https://www.extrememusic.com/search?q="GEOFF%20ZANELLI"

Lorne Balfe also has a bunch of tracks there as Oswin Mackintosh
https://www.extrememusic.com/search?q=" ... MACKINTOSH"
And as himself
https://www.extrememusic.com/search?q=" ... CK%20BALFE"

[Headshot]

the cat's contributions are really very minor. Are suggesting that this is the amount Hans contributes to his tracks?

Come on, it was just to show that you don't know what an orchestrator/arranger can bring : it can be a minor, or major contribution.

And I am convinced that concerning HZ, it's a major contribution.

[phil_l]

HZ scores are recorded so separately and there is so much done in post-production, that "orchestrating for HZ" , since 2000, isnt really orchestrating in the traditional sense. my pov..
When you are doing a mockup and the whole production / director / producers are in the validating process of the mockups. You dont want an orchestrator to change the whole sound and orchestration . That's why most of the orchestrators jobs in RC consist in transcribing the midi , so it sounds realllllyyyy close to the mockup , funnily enough, or sadly.

[Headshot]

Nick Glennie Smith solo scores?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9EdPe510uo

You're right, HZ's music is so much deeper :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk41VOPnj44

[phil_l]

Not the right example because The Rock is really a score arranged/orchestrated by nick glennie smith... Hans came to the rescue because Nick Glennie Smith (after having scored nearly the whole film ) couldnt provide a solid main theme and was close to being fired by Jerry Bruckheimer. HZ only wrote the theme on this one... and when you listen to the original NGS theme, you understand why Jerry asked HZ to write a better theme and I think the theme is what save this score.

[Headshot]

That's why most of the orchestrators jobs in RC are just transcribing so it sounds realllllyyyy close to the mockup , funnily enough.

Yes, concerning the crap he produces generally, but not concerning scores like a League Of Their Own.

and when you listen to the original NGS theme, you understand why Jerry asked HZ to write a better theme and I think the theme is what save this score.

Ok.

[Suck My BRAAAM]

You're right about Silvestri, we recognize his style and his Jazz chops.. but Jim Campbell and further William Ross, Conrad Pope.. sorry but they nearly ghostwrite a lot of Silvestri's Scores.

As for Horner , of course I know he's able to orchestrate himself. I'm a big fan of Horner. But like everybody in Hollywood, even the "real" composers, he really asked orchestrators to do more than a simple job of a copyist. I got that from an orchestrator in London who knows everything and everyone regarding orchestrations. I'm not going to say who he is of course...but only HZ can be trashed because he uses orchestrators and credits arrangers and additional composers.

Sorry, I call bs on your orhchestrator pal or very close orchestrators who say "that on a big amount of scores he just delivers a piano cue and ask the orchestrators to do everything behind." That's not true AT ALL.

When James Horner himself says he orchestrates as much as he can, and that's VERY different than what your orchestrator friends said, I believe him without any hesitation (he earned it):

"I tend to do most of the colouring myself, I decide what instruments play what, what the voicings are. Obviously if I had a lot of music to write and a short amount of time, I'm not getting much done and I will run out of time before I finish the score. So in cases like that I will make copious notes as to what I want on the score paper with arrows, "please double this to this," I'll put in as much as I can and it will then go off to an orchestrator who will finish it off for me and send it to the copyist." - James motherfucking Horner

You picked the wrong guy to make a point here.

Back on topic: no one is trashing Hans (I sure am not, nor Samy isn't with his videos) for using orchestrators, arrangers and additional composers. I couldn't care less about that, it's normal practice in Hollywood with those crazy schedules. What we are discussing here is:

"the simple fact Hans said he wrote and orchestrated every single note of that Big Band cue. When Samy questioned him, instead of giving a honest straight answer, he went for cheap blows and self-pity tactics. And the fanboys took the bait like they usually do. They attacked Samy like a pack of rabid dogs, like they usually do. What went down at VIC was really unfair and dishonest. I'd be pissed too!"

That's it. We are pointing out Hans' blatant lies and the rabid fanboys defaming Samy.